[libreoffice-users] Re: I am downloading LibreOffice to try it out.

Hi, aqualung,

On 4/9/11 10:17 PM, aqualung wrote:
> Ken (and Robert),
>
> Ken Springer wrote:
> > If you think finding Nabble and other help in the Libre Office site is
> > hard, try Mozilla!!  Horrendous!l  Great eye candy, but not particularly
> > functional for finding help.
> True indeed. That's why  http://forums.mozillazine.org Mozillazine , a
> volunteer effort, sprung up and is thriving with millions of posts and
> hundreds of thousands of users.

I just learned about Mozillazine within the last two weeks, but haven't 
had the time to check it out.

But my observation is this...  If users have to resort to a help system 
that is outside of Mozilla, Libre Office, Microsoft, or any other 
organization's help system, such as Google or Ask.com as I do for 
Microsoft help, there is something wrong with the organization's help 
system.  The organization should have the premier help system.

> > If Libre Office goes to a forum format, I'm outta here.  Forums are
> > resource hungry and slow.
> Big forums require dedicated servers, that is true. For people browsing
> there, they are fast and simple to use.

Ah, the difficulties of conveying meaning and a message in words alone. 
 Doesn't always work well.   LOL

It's my belief that at the provider's end, there's serious investment in 
hardware resources regardless of a newsgroup, forum, mailing list, etc. 
 I actually meant, resource hungry and slow at the user's end.  In the 
case of the forum format, the same data can be downloaded again and 
again and again, yet gives me no new information but takes up more of my 
time.

I would take issue that forums are fast and easy to use, but if we wish 
to discuss the pros and cons of how to actually deliver the help, we 
probably should start a new thread.  :-)

I read the LO mailing list via Gmane.  If it wasn't for that option, I 
wouldn't be here.

> >   To me, forums assume the user is to stupid or ignorant to master
> > newsgroups.
> With respect, Ken, that statement to me indicates an insular mindset. You
> may be a "geek" (not intended as an insult) and go back to the early days of
> Usenet, but the majority of people on the Internet  are not.

There was no hint of offense at my end, in fact, I somehow feel 
complimented.  Thank you.

But I do not consider myself a geek at all.  And I harken back to my 
earlier statement regarding writing.  Not only did I miss my own 
grammatical error during proofreading, "to" instead of "too", a better 
choice of descriptors would have been "uneducated".  How can any product 
or system be used effectively if the user does not know of the product 
or system, or how to use it?

I have maintained for years the big problem is not the hardware or 
software, it's the lack of education available to the user and new user. 
 It used to be that vendors gave the new user manuals that had 
information in it that actually had almost all of the answers.  Now, 
manuals, if they even exist, are barely quick start guides.

Case in point:  The OOo user guide for v. 3.  The Writer portion is 
about 1/5th the size of the manual for WordPerfect 4.0 for Atari, yet 
Writer has untold more power and abilities than WP 4.0.

Manuals, and I mean *good* manuals, are the "keys to the city'.   That 
is where I learned what I know about computers and software.

> It is not very
> productive to label them as stupid or ignorant if forums are what they
> prefer.  http://ubuntuforums.org/ Ubuntu  and  http://forums.linuxmint.com/
> Linux Mint , to give two more examples, have embraced forums and met with an
> enthusiastic response.

Devil's Advocate position:  Shouldn't we be asking *why* they choose 
forums over newsgroups.  As I mentioned earlier, how do we know these 
users even know newsgroups exist?  If they don't know about it, they 
certainly won't choose to use it.

> My recommendation would be for The Document Foundation and LibreOffice to
> approach the  http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ OOo volunteer
> forum  to discuss collaboration. It is popular, well maintained, the
> moderators and volunteers are for the most part helpful and knowledgeable,
> and there is no need in my opinion to re-invent the wheel. (Of course, such
> steps may already be going on behind the scenes that we don't yet know
> about.)

I think that's a great idea.  IMO, a lot of the new software you see 
today, such as email clients, don't necessary add new power to the 
software, just more eye candy.  I'm using Thunderbird 3.1.9 for this 
newsgroup, but a 10 year old version of MS Outlook has more options for 
use at the core than TB.

I would further add to your suggestion that as many of the developers of 
other versions of  the basic OOo core be asked to join.

But I'm sure the "fight" would develop over the method of delivering the 
help, be it a newsgroup, mailing list, forum, ad nauseum.  I'm actually 
dumbfounded as to why a single database couldn't be developed, and the 
give the user the choice of all visual formats that makes it easiest for 
each individual user.  I could access via a newsgroup type interface, 
you could use a forum, Robert could use a mailing list.

In the final scheme of things, if a product's end user is not happy, he 
or she will go somewhere else.

IMO!    LOL



Ken


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