Dialog or dialog box?

term, but rather in reference to this paragraph from my previous note:
"I think it would be very helpful for the writers to have access to (or a
copy of) the glossaries used for the UI and Help. I don't know what might be
the best way for us to do that. I have never used Pootle or any type of
translation tool. I think for the writers/reviewers/editors, having a list
of terms in the documentation resources would be easier for us to use. I,
for example, often work offline, so I would like to have a word list that I
can store on my own computer."

So "let's just be consistent" yes. I was talking about the best way to help
us do exactly that.

Hal

Another term is context menu vs pop-up menu for what happens after a right-click. I could start collecting all this stuff for a style guide, if there isn't one already. Any interest?

Hi, :slight_smile:

Another term is context menu vs pop-up menu for what happens after a
right-click. I could start collecting all this stuff for a style guide, if
there isn't one already. Any interest?

I think it would be a great idea for us to compile a terminology guide.

David Nelson

Hi :slight_smile:

As i understand it a "pop-up" is a very generic term and could mean almost
anything that appears. I have even heard a drop-down referred to as a pop-up!

"Context menu" might be a little geeky for people initially but tends to make
sense because of the rest of the sentence it is in, ie "When you right-click
anywhere a context menu pops-up" Taa Dahhh [bows] :slight_smile:

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi, :slight_smile:

The term I have always used in my own work is "context-sensitive menu".

Similarly, I prefer "dialog box" rather than just "dialog"

But Hal mentioned an idea that we could compile a terminology glossary
for the team, so that we all stay on the same track
terminology-wise... Interested in "getting involved", Tom? :wink:

David Nelson

Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
without lengthy debate.
Jean

Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
without lengthy debate.
Jean

I agree. What I was thinking about is a compilation not just of the terms, but also of what paragraph style (fairly obvious as a rule) and especially what character style (sometimes not so obvious) to use for each of the kinds of things we talk about in the guides. That probably exists someplace, too, right? I definitely saw some things that were inconsistent and/or clearly wrong, like OOoMenuPath being used instead of OOoStrongEmphasis, or dialog names using different character styles in different places. But that kind of correction is very time-consuming, and probably beyond the scope of this effort right now. It would help for later reference, though.

PS -- Sure glad the floods didn't get you!

> Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
> that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
> without lengthy debate.
> Jean

I agree. What I was thinking about is a compilation not just of the terms, but also of what
paragraph style (fairly obvious as a rule) and especially what character style (sometimes not so
obvious) to use for each of the kinds of things we talk about in the guides. That probably exists
someplace, too, right?

Look in the template. They should be described there, although I don't
think it contains a definitive list, and a summary from the POV of "For
item x, use style XX" to supplement "Use style XX for items X, Y, Z"
info in the template would be very useful. (That's been on my to-do list
for OOo for years.)

I definitely saw some things that were inconsistent and/or clearly wrong,

Yes, especially in some of the chapters (like #9) that haven't been
properly worked on for several iterations. And no one at OOo has ever
had the leisure to do a thorough consistency fix-up.

like OOoMenuPath being used instead of OOoStrongEmphasis, or dialog names using different character
styles in different places. But that kind of correction is very time-consuming, and probably beyond
the scope of this effort right now. It would help for later reference, though.

PS -- Sure glad the floods didn't get you!

We are fortunate this time, but our turn could still come, if/when a
cyclone comes through the north in the next 2-3 months.

--Jean

Hi Jean, Barbara,

Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
without lengthy debate.
Jean

I agree. What I was thinking about is a compilation not just of the
terms, but also of what paragraph style (fairly obvious as a rule) and
especially what character style (sometimes not so obvious) to use for
each of the kinds of things we talk about in the guides. That probably
exists someplace, too, right? I definitely saw some things that were
inconsistent and/or clearly wrong, like OOoMenuPath being used instead
of OOoStrongEmphasis, or dialog names using different character styles
in different places. But that kind of correction is very time-consuming,
and probably beyond the scope of this effort right now. It would help
for later reference, though.

So we were using an online tool called SunGloss to maintain this glossaries for several languages. It was a great tool, but Oracle has decided to shut it down and use OpenCTI instead wich is a translation tool, so it's not the same usage unfortunately. I'm still thinking of a tool to maintain our glossaries, but their is currently more important tasks for me.

Here you'll find the last export I've made from SunGloss for the French language:
http://fr.openoffice.org/files/documents/67/4226/export_20080417_en-US_fr-FR.zip

This file contains all the words used in the UI with the French translation and comments about this translation and also the state of the word (approved or pending). So there is too much information but at least you get the list of word. Also it's from 2008, so some new words are missing, I can provide you with a list of them later (I maintain another glossary now).
To open the file, you should change the extension to .csv and open it as a tab separated value file with Calc, then you'll be able to filter the file easily.

Hope this help to begin, but I think the more useful really would be to have an online tool accessible to each author to add words and comments, even for style, where there is the ability to make some export for offline work.

PS -- Sure glad the floods didn't get you!

yes, sure :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Sohie

Hi :slight_smile:

While i prefer "dialog box" i still think "dialog" is far better than "window".
"Window" is tooo generic and could be talking about almost anything on the
screen, or the screen itself or famously from a support-line-story even
off-screen.

The story was a user phoned tech-support and had trouble with everything they
said. They finally said "and now just open the window" which resulted in
silence from his end, some footsteps and then bird-song.

Also with something too generic (such as windows) there is a danger of
contravening copyright or even just totally confusing people if the word is used
at the beginning of a sentence.

I'm happy with "dialog", it's close enough to what i prefer and specific enough
to mean something.

I guess i might be interested in something like that working group but i tend to
prefer just standing on the side-lines and complaining about everything!
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

There are a few starting points for something like this but all i have is
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary

One of the Ubuntu translators teams mentioned about sharing some sort of
glossary/dictionary/translated-words across amny projects but i can't remeber
and can't find any details right now.

Sophie sounded as tho she had salvaged something rejected by Oracle that was
incredibly useful. It would be better to implement that imo.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
without lengthy debate.
Jean

I agree. What I was thinking about is a compilation not just of the terms, but also of what
paragraph style (fairly obvious as a rule) and especially what character style (sometimes not so
obvious) to use for each of the kinds of things we talk about in the guides. That probably exists
someplace, too, right?

Look in the template. They should be described there, although I don't
think it contains a definitive list, and a summary from the POV of "For
item x, use style XX" to supplement "Use style XX for items X, Y, Z"
info in the template would be very useful. (That's been on my to-do list
for OOo for years.)

Ah! Never thought to look there -- the template in its older form had already been applied, just reapplied it to pick up changes. Good stuff! Maybe when we're done with the rebranding I can take some time for the reversed POV summary. I expect there might also be some additional character styles that would help by being obviously intended when referring to parts of the UI, for example.

I definitely saw some things that were inconsistent and/or clearly wrong,

Yes, especially in some of the chapters (like #9) that haven't been
properly worked on for several iterations. And no one at OOo has ever
had the leisure to do a thorough consistency fix-up.

I went after it pretty thoroughly for content just now, but gave up on the consistency aspect due to the time involved. This is the kind of thing I'm perfectly willing to do, though.

Hi Jean, Barbara,

Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
without lengthy debate.
Jean

I agree. What I was thinking about is a compilation not just of the
terms, but also of what paragraph style (fairly obvious as a rule) and
especially what character style (sometimes not so obvious) to use for
each of the kinds of things we talk about in the guides. That probably
exists someplace, too, right? I definitely saw some things that were
inconsistent and/or clearly wrong, like OOoMenuPath being used instead
of OOoStrongEmphasis, or dialog names using different character styles
in different places. But that kind of correction is very time-consuming,
and probably beyond the scope of this effort right now. It would help
for later reference, though.

So we were using an online tool called SunGloss to maintain this glossaries for several languages. It was a great tool, but Oracle has decided to shut it down and use OpenCTI instead wich is a translation tool, so it's not the same usage unfortunately. I'm still thinking of a tool to maintain our glossaries, but their is currently more important tasks for me.

Here you'll find the last export I've made from SunGloss for the French language:
http://fr.openoffice.org/files/documents/67/4226/export_20080417_en-US_fr-FR.zip

This file contains all the words used in the UI with the French translation and comments about this translation and also the state of the word (approved or pending). So there is too much information but at least you get the list of word. Also it's from 2008, so some new words are missing, I can provide you with a list of them later (I maintain another glossary now).
To open the file, you should change the extension to .csv and open it as a tab separated value file with Calc, then you'll be able to filter the file easily.

Thanks, Sophie. Definitely a huge number of items (15,887) there! It doesn't look as if it will resolve the "which to use" issue, though. Apparently it includes anything that has been used, so both "dialog" and "dialog box" are there, as are "menu bar" and "main menu" (for example). "Context menu" isn't there, though "contextual menu" is -- so that seems to have been a global change. And there are a slew of "pop-up" related terms! So absence of a term is meaningful, but presence really isn't.

Hope this help to begin, but I think the more useful really would be to have an online tool accessible to each author to add words and comments, even for style, where there is the ability to make some export for offline work.

Right.

Yes, it doesn't help you yet, you need to update it as time being and really adapt it to your needs.
But I can help here by searching (greping) for the occurrences of the words in the help files quiet quickly.
Would you be able to send me a list of terms you need to check for consistency? I'll search for them and will send them back to you. If you don't have a list, but just terms from time to time, no problem, I'll be able to check for the any way.

- So for menu bar/main menu: Main menu is appearing only once in the help "Note for Mac OS X users: The Help mentions the menu path Tools - Options at numerous places. Replace this path with %PRODUCTNAME - Preferences on your Mac OS X main menu"
This is menu bar that is used instead.

- For contextual menu/context menu: Contextual menu doesn't exist in the help file. Context menu is the one that is used.

This grep is done on OOoDEV_m84 help files.

Kind regards
Sophie

Hi Jean, Barbara,

Seriously, shouldn't you get the glossary from Sophie and start with
that? It will probably contain most of the terms that the team needs,
without lengthy debate.
Jean

I agree. What I was thinking about is a compilation not just of the
terms, but also of what paragraph style (fairly obvious as a rule) and
especially what character style (sometimes not so obvious) to use for
each of the kinds of things we talk about in the guides. That probably
exists someplace, too, right? I definitely saw some things that were
inconsistent and/or clearly wrong, like OOoMenuPath being used instead
of OOoStrongEmphasis, or dialog names using different character styles
in different places. But that kind of correction is very time-consuming,
and probably beyond the scope of this effort right now. It would help
for later reference, though.

So we were using an online tool called SunGloss to maintain this
glossaries for several languages. It was a great tool, but Oracle has
decided to shut it down and use OpenCTI instead wich is a translation
tool, so it's not the same usage unfortunately. I'm still thinking of
a tool to maintain our glossaries, but their is currently more
important tasks for me.

Here you'll find the last export I've made from SunGloss for the
French language:
http://fr.openoffice.org/files/documents/67/4226/export_20080417_en-US_fr-FR.zip

This file contains all the words used in the UI with the French
translation and comments about this translation and also the state of
the word (approved or pending). So there is too much information but
at least you get the list of word. Also it's from 2008, so some new
words are missing, I can provide you with a list of them later (I
maintain another glossary now).
To open the file, you should change the extension to .csv and open it
as a tab separated value file with Calc, then you'll be able to filter
the file easily.

Thanks, Sophie. Definitely a huge number of items (15,887) there! It
doesn't look as if it will resolve the "which to use" issue, though.
Apparently it includes anything that has been used, so both "dialog" and
"dialog box" are there, as are "menu bar" and "main menu" (for example).
"Context menu" isn't there, though "contextual menu" is -- so that seems
to have been a global change. And there are a slew of "pop-up" related
terms! So absence of a term is meaningful, but presence really isn't.

Yes, it doesn't help you yet, you need to update it as time being and really adapt it to your needs.
But I can help here by searching (greping) for the occurrences of the words in the help files quiet quickly.
Would you be able to send me a list of terms you need to check for consistency? I'll search for them and will send them back to you. If you don't have a list, but just terms from time to time, no problem, I'll be able to check for the any way.

Right now, there's no list. Thanks for the offer to grep the terms, that should be a real help.

- So for menu bar/main menu: Main menu is appearing only once in the help "Note for Mac OS X users: The Help mentions the menu path Tools - Options at numerous places. Replace this path with %PRODUCTNAME - Preferences on your Mac OS X main menu"
This is menu bar that is used instead.

OK, thanks. Sounds as if we should change that as we go. And we also seem agreed on "dialog" rather than "dialog box" -- right?

- For contextual menu/context menu: Contextual menu doesn't exist in the help file. Context menu is the one that is used.

Interesting -- the translation material seems to go the other way. How about "context menu" vs "pop-up menu" or "pop-up window menu" or "pop-up window" or the other variants on that, with and without the hyphen?

Hi Barbara,
[...]

OK, thanks. Sounds as if we should change that as we go. And we also
seem agreed on "dialog" rather than "dialog box" -- right?

That is what is used in the help files.

- For contextual menu/context menu: Contextual menu doesn't exist in
the help file. Context menu is the one that is used.

Interesting -- the translation material seems to go the other way.

If you speak about French translation in the glossary, I usually work with Gnome, Mozilla, Debian and KDE groups, so there is sometime an harmonization between their usage and mine. Gnome/KDE and OOo have put a shared glossary on line grouping all the words we use for the French products.
  How

about "context menu" vs "pop-up menu" or "pop-up window menu" or "pop-up
window" or the other variants on that, with and without the hyphen?

pop-up menu: used twice
helpcontent2-fr/smath/01.po:"choices from this pop-up menu to access the <link "
helpcontent2-fr/shared/04.po:msgid "Opens the list of the control field currently selected in a dialog. These shortcut keys apply not only to combo boxes but also to icon buttons with pop-up menus. Close an opened list by pressing the Escape key."

pop-up window menu: not used
pop-up window: not used
the variant of the three without the hyphen is not used.

Kind regards
Sophie

I probably should claim the main responsibility/blame or whatever for employing "dialog box" over "dialog" over at OOoAuthors since 2006. My basic rationale was that dialog box was more widely used by most of the major software/firmware/hardware developers over the past two decades, including Microsoft, Sun Microsystems--the previous sponsor of OOo, Motorola, Red Hat, IBM, among numerous others.

When working as a technical editor of user guides for (embedded-microcontroller) compilers, assemblers, IDEs, etc. over at the newly branded spinoff of Motorola--Freescale Semiconductor--during 2005, I was directed to follow its corporate style guide, which strictly mandated its use over dialog (no exceptions were allowed, as with many other corporate style guides, such as guides for those firms listed above).

Also, the Wilkipedia has dialog box in lieu of dialog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog_box). The Wiki tends to employ the more accurate nomenclature for most GUI components. If one follows the Wiki forms, then agreement can be more universal. [Hint: If one does not like whatever form the Wiki employs--change (edit) it...] Some editors prefer dialog for one reason or another; others consider the use of dialog to be flawed, lazy, or sloppy usage. Oracle tends to employ both forms...

Another area of disagreement is in the use of "tabbed page" or "tabbed window" versus a "tab." A tab is the part of the GUI component on a tabbed window/page that a user selects for accessing the desired page/window, much like a small tab on an index card in an older paper-based filing system. The page/window itself contains the bulk of that document's information, but not the small projection (tab).

There are others.

Gary

Hi Barbara,
[...]

OK, thanks. Sounds as if we should change that as we go. And we also
seem agreed on "dialog" rather than "dialog box" -- right?

That is what is used in the help files.

- For contextual menu/context menu: Contextual menu doesn't exist in
the help file. Context menu is the one that is used.

Interesting -- the translation material seems to go the other way.

If you speak about French translation in the glossary, I usually work with Gnome, Mozilla, Debian and KDE groups, so there is sometime an harmonization between their usage and mine. Gnome/KDE and OOo have put a shared glossary on line grouping all the words we use for the French products.

I was talking about the file you pointed to, and what I saw in the Calc version. The term "context menu" is not there, but "contextual menu" is. (Only looked at the English column.)

How

about "context menu" vs "pop-up menu" or "pop-up window menu" or "pop-up
window" or the other variants on that, with and without the hyphen?

pop-up menu: used twice
helpcontent2-fr/smath/01.po:"choices from this pop-up menu to access the <link "
helpcontent2-fr/shared/04.po:msgid "Opens the list of the control field currently selected in a dialog. These shortcut keys apply not only to combo boxes but also to icon buttons with pop-up menus. Close an opened list by pressing the Escape key."

pop-up window menu: not used
pop-up window: not used
the variant of the three without the hyphen is not used.

Kind regards
Sophie

OK, it seems that "context menu" is the preferred choice. Thanks!

Sometime around twenty years ago, Microsoft and Apple employed differing forms--context versus contextual--in their documentation. I forgot which one used which. Other developers typically chose the form of the two forms based upon the O/S their apps used. IOW, back then it was a PC/Mac sort of thing.

Doing some pro bono (they gave me expensive embedded-microcontroller firmware-development apps to use for free) technical-editing work for Motorola in the very late 1990s/early 2000s, I used each form, depending upon which O/S the particular IDE apps used.

So, another consideration is to employ the term based upon the particular O/S hosting the office suite.

Gary

I think the intent is for the documentation (embedded help, online, PDFs, published) to be as platform-neutral as possible, and as consistent with each other as possible in the terminology used. Sophie is kindly doing greps on the embedded help so we can try to do that. Always interesting to get the backstory, though! I don't even remember now what terms were used in the IBM product I was working on embedded help for (back in 1996, in one of my last actual paid activities).